艺言难尽 Speak No More | 机器的人性
渣克周对话艺术家吕连涛
渣克周对话策展人段少锋
访谈对话 Dialogue
渣克周：那我们可以来聊聊你的这次的创作。咱们先，比如说咱们要不就先从门口入手，先这个小手指头开始。
Zachariah Zhou: Then we can talk about your creation this time. Let's start with, Let's start with the doorway, for example, Let's start with this little finger.
吕连涛：好啊。
Lv Liantao: Okay.
渣克周：这是不是你的，就是这次展览最早的一件作品。
Zachariah Zhou: Is this, one of the your earliest works in this exhibition.
吕连涛：算是比较早的一个作品，算是比较早的一批。我的作品其实在，都是延续着一个把身体的某个部分的动作处理出来，这个动作有可能是一个下意识的动作，它有一种情绪，我对这种本能的情绪，用身体的动作体现出来的情绪很感兴趣。比如说抖腿，比如说敲桌子。你在不知所措的时候，或者在想问题的时候，会有一个这样敲的动作，我往往会把这个动作给提纯、处理出来。然后其中有一个比较有意思的地方，有好多朋友问这个问题，为什么会把身体的一个，一部分等于像切割出来一样，然后把它呈现出来，我琢磨着可能有一定的那种，有点义肢那个意思。其实义肢在某些程度上讲，它更接近于它功能本身，它在替代这个，最本质的一个功能，它代替你行走，然后它去除了很多其他的额外的属性，比如美观。各方面它都去除掉了。把这个东西提纯以后，那个情绪加上有点假有点真，介于那个，更加纯粹一点。并且我也不是完全仿生地把那个声音和动作提出来，而是经过一定处理放大，不一定是原来那个声音了。它有可能是和你像这个敲手指的声音，是和空间本身发生了关联。
Lv Liantao: It's one of the earlier works, It's one of the earlier ones. My works are in fact are a continuation of the movement of a certain part of the body. This movement may be a subconscious movement, It has an emotion. I am interested in this instinctive emotion, I'm interested in the emotions that are expressed through the movement of the body. For example, shaking your leg. Like knocking on the table. When you're at a loss for words or when you're thinking about a problem, There's a knocking motion like that. I tend to purify this action and process it, And then there's an interesting part of it. A lot of people ask this question, Why do you cut out a part of your body, part of the body is like cutting it out, and then present it. I think there may be a certain kind of like a prosthesis. In fact, in some ways, prosthetics is closer to the function itself. It's replacing that, replacing one of the most essential functions. It replaces your walking. And then it removes a lot of other extra attributes. It removes all the aesthetic aspects. It purifies it. Then the emotion is a little bit fake and a little bit real, between fake and real. It's a bit more pure, and I didn't just bionically bring out the sound and movement, but I amplified it somewhat. It's not necessarily the same sound as the original. It could be the same as, you know, like the sound of the finger tapping. It's a connection to the space itself.
渣克周：那个其实是个偶然。
Zachariah Zhou: That's actually a coincidence.
吕连涛：当然当然，就是它敲在不同的物质上都会有不同的声音。比如说最早的版本是敲在椅子背上和木头敲击的声音，有点像木鱼，然后两个在一起对峙的状态，然后这一次把数量上按照一个台阶的数量慢慢向上的一个过程，并且和材质，同样是水泥地，但是它宽窄、高低、密度都有不同，它会有一点音阶性，音阶的不同，甚至出来一个比较，听起来很诡异的一个声音，我觉得这就是和空间在一起有意思的地方。
Lv Liantao: Of course. It's that it's hitting different substances. There are different sounds. For example, the earliest version was knocking on the back of a chair. Like the sound of striking wood. A bit like banging a wooden fish. And then the two were confronting each other. Then this time the number is different, there are multiple steps, and the striking has a slow upward. And it is also related to the material. The same concrete floor, but it is different in width, height and density. It's all different. It's a little bit of a scale. A difference in scale. It even comes out as a comparison. It's an eerie sound to hear. I think that's what's interesting with the space.
渣克周：那你觉得这个声音会不会已经取代了你本来这个作品？
Zachariah Zhou: So do you think that this sound has replaced your original work as such?
吕连涛：不，就是想要这个声音。手指头这件作品从最早和椅子背，其实动作是我一直想弱化的，就是想要那个声音，那个声音是我最想要的，敲的那个动作。
Lv Liantao: No, it's the sound that you want. The fingertip piece is from the very beginning with the back of the chair. The movement is something I've always wanted to weaken. I just wanted the sound. The sound is what I wanted the most. The action of the knock.
渣克周：其实一开始就是想要那个声音本身。
Zachariah Zhou: Actually, the sound itself was what I wanted from the beginning.
吕连涛：对对对。就在一个当时毕业展不一个群展么，我就想在一个角落里面，悄悄地，有这么一个两个声音。
Lv Liantao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was in the graduation exhibition a group exhibition. I just wanted set it in a corner, quietly. There were just one or two voices.
渣克周：毕业展的时候就展了这个。
Zachariah Zhou: You exhibited this at the graduation exhibition.
吕连涛：对对对。就在一个角落里，一进去以后看不见我的作品，但能听到铛、铛、铛。
Lv Liantao: Yes, yes, yes. It's in a corner. Once inside, I couldn't see my work. But you can hear the clang, clang, clang.
渣克周：那有人会，他会顺着声音就寻过去了，直接找过来了。
Zachariah Zhou: Then someone will. He'll follow the sound and he'll find it. He'll follow the sound and he'll come straight to it.
吕连涛：对对，他会寻过去。因为它一直不断，没有那种像手啊、眼睛，那种互动，他就是一直在动 一直有的声音，垫在所有的，感觉其实对所有的作品都有一个冒犯，并且对其他的作品也有一个底层的思考和一个比较往下沉的一个心态在里面，并且躲在一个角落里。这是我毕业创作的一个呈现。
Lv Liantao: Yeah, yeah, he'd go there. Because the sound doesn't stop. There's no interaction like hands or eyes or anything like that. He's just always moving, always sounding. Padding in all the... It feels like there's actually an offense to all the pieces and to the other works. There's also an underlying thought and a more sunken. A mentality in which and hiding in a corner. This is a presentation of my graduation work.
渣克周：包括我们踢墙的腿，以及你在外面放置这些椅子。就包括隔壁邻居都已经到后来就被你椅子都吵的都已经受不了了。挺惊讶的是，并不是踢墙吵到他们，是椅子和地板的震动，导致像一个发动机一样的人嗡嗡地去响。这些东西，你是一开始也是想要它的声音吗？还是说......
Zachariah Zhou: Including the legs that we kicked against the wall and you put these chairs outside. Even the next door neighbours have been and then the noise from your chairs was too much. They couldn't stand it anymore. What was surprising was that it wasn't the kicking of the wall that was bothering them. It was the vibration of the chairs and the floor that caused them to buzz like an engine. Did you want the sound of these things in the first place, or was it just that...
吕连涛：对，声音是我考量的很重要的一部分。墙，它自然会有那种声音，不同的材质，这次我换了一种材质，换了一种纯铜的，铜这种材质在我看来有一定的指向性，它有一些其他的属性在里面。金色啊，象征的一些权力、话语权啊，它在和一个空间去对抗，并且空间的内部是眼睛......
Lv Liantao: Yes, sound is a very important part of my consideration. The wall, it's going to have that sound naturally. Different materials. I've changed the material this time. I changed it to a pure copper. Copper has a certain directionality in my opinion. It has some other properties in it. The gold, the power, the power of speech. It's fighting against a space and the interior of the space is the eye and…
渣克周：为什么铜是跟这个权力相关？
Zachariah Zhou: Why is copper associated with this power?
吕连涛：不是铜其实铜在早也是一个稀有金属，其实它仅次于金和银，下面就是铜。就是我觉得它是有一定阶级性在里面，所以我选的这个，这次很多材料用的是铜的，金色的一个材质。
Lv Liantao: It is not copper, but copper is a rare metal. In fact, it is second only to gold and silver.Then it's copper. I think it has some character of class in it. That's why I chose this one. A lot of the material used this time is copper. It's a golden material.
渣克周：这是黄铜吗？
Zachariah Zhou: Is this brass?
吕连涛：黄铜，黄铜。黄铜它更接近于金色本身。然后它表面进行了一个抛光，让它有一点闪，有一点小亮光，这都是需要的。说到声音，就是那个椅子那个声音，那也是一个之前的作品，它最早是在湖南的一个展厅在展，然后其实我考虑那个椅子，其实声音是我想到的，它肯定会有震动，震动它才会和地面、和椅子腿有一个关系。其实我考虑这个点其实很简单，就是在咱们坐凳子的时候会有的时候发现凳子不稳，但是你会把凳子稍微的一转，它就稳了，其实你说不准到底是椅子腿不平还是地不平。我考虑点就非常简单，就是这个点。但是这个点不平和震动，它就会让它移动，移动以后，它会在相对比较平的地方会移动得特别慢。
Lv Liantao: Brass, brass. The brass is closer to the gold itself. And then the surface is polished. It's a little bit shiny, a little bit glossy, and that's all it needs. Speaking of sound, it's the sound of the chair. That was also a previous work. It was first exhibited in a showroom in Hunan. I was actually thinking about the chair. The sound is what I thought of. It must have a vibration. It's only when it vibrates that it has a relationship with the floor and the legs of the chair. The point I was thinking about was actually very simple. When we sit on a stool. Sometimes we find that the chair is unstable. But when you turn the stool a little, it will be stable. In fact, you can't tell. Is the chair leg uneven or is the floor uneven? My point of consideration is very simple: this point. But this point is uneven and vibrates. It will make it move. When it moves, it will move very slowly in a relatively flat area.
渣克周：缓慢地。
Zachariah Zhou: Slowly.
吕连涛：对，声音会变得比较大。然后如果它要是比较不平，它这样频率比较大的时候，它声音比较小，但是移动速度比较快。它其实一直在这个空间里面去探索，它到底在寻求自己一个位置，一个摩擦力最小的位置其实是。其实我的作品往往都是从一个生活上一个最底层的一个很小的点出发，然后去寻求一个，有一点情绪在的，我愿意就是那种身体的情绪，物的情绪，我都愿意把这个事抽离出来放大。
Lv Liantao: Yes, the sound will become louder. And if it's uneven. When it is more frequent like this. It's less loud. But it's moving faster. It is actually seeking a position for himself. A position with the least friction is actually. In fact, my works are always from the lowest point of life. From a very small point in life and then seek a little bit of emotion in it. I would like to…seek the emotion of the body. The emotions of things. I'm willing to take this out and magnify it.
渣克周：那包括这个反光的手 其实也是来自于生活？
Zachariah Zhou: That includes the reflective hand, which also comes from life.
吕连涛：当然了。我工作室就有一个特别奇怪的一件事。我工作室是阴面，窗户都冲西。我不知道东南西北，反正就是落日的话，反倒对面的窗户上会透过窗户晃到我。你懂那意思吧，就是对面那个玻璃是反光的玻璃，我没有正午的阳光，我的工作室，只有在落日的时候，才会有一个反光。然后反到我的脸上，会晃到我和反到我墙上。然后我其实对这个光已经看了好久了，包括它的，在我工作室光的形状的变化，但是我就是一拉开窗帘或者一出门晃那一下，我觉得挺刺激的，所以......
Lv Liantao: Of course. In my studio, There's a particularly strange thing about it. My studio faces the shaded side. The windows all face west. I don't know if it's north or south. Anyway, when the sun sets, the windows on the other side of the room shine through me. You know what that means? It's the reflective glass on the other side. I don't have the midday sun, my studio. Only at sunset. There's only a reflection in my studio at sunset. And then it reflects back on my face and it shakes me and it reflects back on my wall. And I've actually been looking at this light for a long time including its changing shape in my studio. But when I open the curtains or when I go out, it just shakes a little bit. I find it quite exciting, so...
渣克周：那听起来，就是说，你看你的这个想法，一开始都是一个高度自然的、生活的一个场景。我是比较好奇为什么会选择用比如说这种带电的、机械的这些，一些手段去实现这些好像看似其实，好像它这件事情跟这个电和自动化和这些科技的东西其实是没有太大关系的，对吧？
Zachariah Zhou: So it sounds like... you see, this idea of yours. It all started out as a highly naturalistic, a scene of life. I'm curious as to why you chose say, electrically charged mechanical means to achieve this. It seems to be, in fact, as if it is something. It seems to have nothing to do with electricity and automation and technology. It doesn't really have much to do with. Right?
吕连涛：对，其实我是这样考虑这个事情。其实我不认为我选取的，我一直和别人聊的时候，不认为我选取的是一个非常高科技的手段。我一直认为它现在一个非常正常的手段，它就是随处可见的，像咱们现在骑个摩托车，骑个自行车，这都是非常司空见惯的东西了。我利用的就是最简单的一个推杆啊，什么舵轮啊，特别简单的一些齿轮咬合，非常非常简单。其实为什么要用机械这个东西，还要说回义肢性质上面来，我从身体这部分出发的，我要让他替代一些抽离它的动作，就得让它动起来。如果我静态放在那儿，我走的不是那一脉，我觉得我和别人也聊，我可能以后会做静态的装置。但是现在目前为止，我觉得静态装置对我来说难度有点大，我还没有能hold得住，就是在不动的状况下我觉得那更难。
Lv Liantao: Yeah, actually, that's how I think about it. I actually don't think I picked the...When I've been talking to people, I don't think what I've chosen is a very high tech tool. I've always thought of it as a very normal tool now. It's just something you can see everywhere. Like we ride a motorbike nowadays. Riding a bicycle. It's all very commonplace. I'm using the simplest of pushrods. A rudder wheel, a simple gear clutch. Very, very simple. In fact, why do we need mechanical things? It comes back to the nature of the prosthesis. I started with the body part. I want it to replace some of the movements that are taken away from it. I have to make it move. If I keep it static, I'm not in that vein. I think I talk to people too. I might do static installations in the future. But so far. I think static installations are a bit too difficult for me. I haven't been able to hold it yet. I think it's more difficult when it's not moving.
渣克周：我个人觉得这样的反而是比较难。
Zachariah Zhou: I personally think it's more difficult.
吕连涛：更直接，而且我这套动作还没有完成，我说我完成以后慢慢地可能就放弃掉动，然后变到一个静态的一个装置。这都是一个过程，我需要把现在这段话先说完，我给别人举个例子就是说，动态的东西，像是写一个议论文或者一个记叙文，像一个小说，它有很多不同的角度。比如声音、动作、材质，然后和场域的关系、复制、还有很多手段，但是它说的是一个事情。但诗可能就是用极短的文字，极端的一个状态来说一个话，然后就把这事说得很明白，并且说得很宽泛，大家可以进去的角度会特别多，但是我觉得我现在没有把这些，现在这个阶段没没有说完的话，直接进入那个阶段是有点快的。我个人觉得动态装置偏简单，然后静态装置和雕塑再往后面绘画，包括一些纯平面的一个语言、现成品，我觉得那都是需要切入角度更加的刁钻，我个人认为，我现在，我觉得还是需要把这个手段先弄好，并且确实和身体的部分有关系，我需要一点这种动，机械本身的声音，机械齿轮之间咬合的声音也好，它和踹墙、跺地，然后来形成的声音，都是我想要的东西，是机械本身的声音，然后是我很重要的一个语言。很重要的一个把别人引到我的这个圈套也好，还是我预设的一个场里面也好，需要别人沉进去的一个手段，很重要的一部分。
Lv Liantao: It's more direct. And I haven't finished the routine yet. I said that when I finish, I might slowly give up moving and then become a static device. This is all a process. I need to finish this paragraph first. I'll give someone an example of...Something dynamic. Like writing an argumentative essay or a narrative essay. It's like a novel. It's got a lot of different perspectives. Like sound, movement, material. And then the relationship to the field, the replication, and many other devices. But it's about one thing. But a poem can be a very short text. But a poem can be about saying one thing in one extreme state. And then it makes it very clear. And it's very broad. There are so many different perspectives that people can go into. But I don't think I'm putting all these. But I don't think I've put all that into this stage. It's a bit quick to go straight to that stage. I personally feel that the dynamic installations are on the easy side. Then the static installations and sculptures are followed by painting including some purely graphic language. I think it needs to be done from a more difficult angle, I personally think. Now I think. I still need to get this technique right first and it does have something to do with the body part. I need a little bit of movement, the sound of the machinery itself. The sound of the gears gnashing together or It's the same as kicking the wall, stomping the floor. It's the sound that I want to make. It's the sound of the machinery itself and it's a very important language for me. It's very imprtant to draw people into my trap. It's an important part of my language. It's a way to draw people in. It's a very important part of it.
渣克周：所以它其实是一个术，它不是一个最终的目的。
Zachariah Zhou: So it's a technique. It's not an ultimate goal.
吕连涛：当然，我觉得是这样的。我一直认为手段是次要的，想说的话是最主要的。我可能现在想说一个事儿，我会找一个合适的手段来做这个事，可能目前为止我对机械这块用的比较顺手，并且也没有一个好的机会，或者是好的一个语言，能让我放弃掉现在这部分，我就先把这个事先做的完整一些，当有一天这些完整的说完以后，可能就进入我试试不动的，试一试安静的，那都是另外一说了。
Lv Liantao: Of course, I think that's true. I've always thought that the means is secondary. The main thing is what you want to say. I might want to say something now. I'll find a suitable means to do that. I'm probably more comfortable with the mechanical side of things so far and there's not a good opportunity or a good language that would allow me to give up this part. I'll just make it complete first, and one day when that is complete. I might go into I'll try the immobile, I'll try the quiet. That's another story.
渣克周：那其实在我看来，你的这次的作品其实已经是非常大的一次尝试。就包括使用人脸识别，然后眼球识别，以及叫什么UWB，这是相当于它是一个，如果没记错，它是一个有点像是一个3D建模，或者是一个场地的，把它数据化相当于是不是？
Zachariah Zhou: In fact, in my opinion, your work this time is actually a very big experiment, including the use of face recognition, and eye recognition. And what is it called, UWB? It's the equivalent of a, if I remember correctly. It's a bit of a 3D modeling or a field of It's the data equivalent of that, isn't it?
吕连涛：我理解是这样的，但是技术理解是另外一回事。我理解的技术是它把这个场域给数据化了，你每一个地方都相当于是坐标化，人进去以后拿到权杖，拿到一个目标以后，你是坐标和作品之间是能有一个交互的，是有一个联系的，然后中间玩法会很多，然后这次可能选的，选的是个比较直接的眼睛，看一个象征一个话语权的东西，这个也是和当下我觉得是有点关联的。比如说现在你看到了这些大的互联网企业，他们也其实掌握了很多话语权，然后其实又说到为什么用身体部分，我和别人聊到一个话题，就是说现在人工智能大背景下，出来很多这个人工智能下的一些新职业。比如说无人驾驶，标注一些图片，它会分发好多场景，然后人其实在那儿这是工具灯，这是人，这是汽车，这是障碍物，然后他是用人的一个标注，实际的标注来让机器学习，这时候人其实特别没有人味了，它就变成人变成机器了。
Lv Liantao: That's what I understand it to be. But the technical understanding is a different matter. The technical understanding is that it's a way of data-formatting the field. Every place you go is equivalent to a coordinate. When you go in, you get the scepter, you get a target. There is an interaction between the coordinates and the work. There is a connection. And there are many ways to play in between. And this time you might choose. It's a more direct eye. Look at something that symbolises the power of speech. I think this is also somewhat relevant to the present. For example, now you see. These big internet companies. They actually have a lot of power of speech. And then it comes to why they use the body part. I was talking to someone about a topic. That is, under the background of artificial intelligence now. There are a lot of new professions under artificial intelligence. For example, driverless. Tagging some pictures. It will distribute many scenes. And then the people actually hook up there... this is the tool light. This is a person. This is a car, this is an obstacle. And then he is using a human annotation. The actual labeling is used to make the machine learn. At this point, the human is actually not human anymore. A human being is turned into a machine.
渣克周：它只是通过量化。
Zachariah Zhou: It's just quantified.
吕连涛：对，人现在已经去除掉这个感情了，他是个机器。就是机器，又有了一点恐怖的阴森的人的感觉，然后他来通过人本身的一个劳动，去学习一个结果，让他能实现思考，这个是很恐怖的一件事。
Lv Liantao: Yes, the human has now removed the emotion, he's a machine. It's a machine. There's a little bit of the horror again. The eerie human feeling. Then he comes to learn a result through the labour of man himself to learn a result, so that he can think. This is a very scary thing.
渣克周：我觉得这就是一个很经典的现代性的悖论。其实我也经常去说这个东西，我会认为人现在在我们现在这个社会里面，如果你想成为一个所谓的更好的人，你就首先要失去一点点人性，就是你要为了成为更好的人，但是它的逻辑是你要先失去你那个人性，你才可以成为更好的人。他这个逻辑很有意思，我会觉得这个是在机器这边是相反过来的，你想要成为一个更好的机器，你要获得一点点人味，去掉一点点机器性。
Zachariah Zhou: I think this is a very classic paradox of modernity. In fact, I often talk about this stuff. I think that people in our society nowadays. If you want to become a so-called better person. You have to lose a little bit of your humanity first, In order to become a better person. But the logic is that you have to lose your humanity first before you can become a better person. It's an interesting logic. I think it's the other way around on the machine side. You want to be a better machine, you have to gain a little bit of humanity, to get rid of a little bit of the machine.
吕连涛：但是咱们现在站的这个角度不一样，我却认为人的那个人味，是特别弥足珍贵的。我觉得那是应该特别警惕，和特别应该保留的一些情感的东西，其实我最终我的作品传达的是情感，就是人进来以后看到这些声音和动作以后，这个人进入这个地方和作品之间，他有什么感受，这个感受是我觉得我最想要的。就是任何人进来都有一个感受，这个感受我觉得是想要的，所以说，我觉得那点人味，我想说的就是在大背景下，这个人去除掉功能本身特有的情感也好，情绪也好，本能、生理也好，都是需要特别应该珍惜的。其实我觉得这是我看现在这个大的环境下，我觉得人要警惕和珍惜的就是这个感情。所以说，你可能站在是另外一个维度来考虑这个问题。我是站在一个底层的人，我就是一个活生生的人，然后我虽然做的事是去掉感情的一些东西，就是提取他的动作和声音，但是我想传达的，却恰恰是那个人味，就是冰冷背后的人味。
Lv Liantao: But we're on a different side of the fence. I think that the human touch is particularly valuable. I think it's something that we should be particularly vigilant about and should be preserved. In fact, what I convey in my work is emotion. When people come in and see these sounds and movements between this place and the work. How does he feel? This feeling is what I think I want most. It's a feeling that anyone can have when they come in. I think this feeling is what I want, so. I think what I want to say about the human touch is that in the context. The loss of one's own unique feelings or emotions, instincts, physiological stuff. These are all things that should be cherished. In fact, I think this is what I see in the current environment. I think people should be vigilant and It's the emotions that we should cherish. You may be standing in a different dimension to consider this issue. I'm a person at the bottom. I'm a living, breathing human being. And then what I'm doing though is taking away some of the emotional stuff. I'm extracting his movements and his voice. But what I wanted to convey. It's the human touch. It's the human touch behind the coldness.
渣克周：这个我能理解，就比如说包括你的那个腿，他踢出来的其实不是只是一个坑而已，它是一个带有象征性的符号，一个文字，而且是人类可能是，怎么说呢，人类发明语言以来，最可能最有powerful，最强的几个词之一 sorry，就是对不起，对，我觉得这个的确是我能看出来，但你觉得比如说大家对所谓的这种人情味，或者说这种你想要说的，想要言说的这种情绪感觉，大家对它的认知强吗，还是说大家过来看到的，更多的只是这是个装置艺术，或者说是这是一个可以互动跟我玩的一个小东西，还是说大家的确能感提炼出来那种情绪的，你觉得呢？
Zachariah Zhou: I can understand that, for example, including your leg. It's not just a pit that he's kicking out. It's a symbol, a word. And it's a human being who may be, how shall I put it? Since man invented language. One of the most potentially powerful... One of the most powerful words... sorry. is "sorry". Yes, I think I can see that. But do you think that, for example, people are interested in this so-called human touch or this feeling that you want to say, or this feeling of emotion that you want to say? Do people have a strong perception of it? Or do you think that what people see when they come here is more like it's an installation? Or is it a little thing that you can interact with? Or can people really distill the emotion of it? What do you think?
吕连涛：是这样的，我是觉得我这个展览最重要的一点是，为什么说到展览的名字叫跳进泥沼，也是经过反复和老段和赵邦和你，咱们好多人一块商量好久反复推敲然后选了这么一个名字，这个名字看似很空泛的一个名字，但是我觉得他是有一个劲儿的。其实我 观众进来以后，他具体什么反应其实不重要了，重要的是你要把自己丢到这个场域里面去，你要有这个想法，我能把自己丢进去，所以说跳进泥沼，跳进，我觉得是代表了一个你的态度，就是你愿意跳进去，你面临一切也好，面临大环境也好，面临所有的一些，你愿意去进入里面，进入到这里面，然后在里面你是在里面玩也好，在里面痛苦也好，纠结也好难受也好，但是你永远是在这个里面，你愿意跳进去的。
Lv Liantao: Well, I think the most important thing about my exhibition. The most important point is Why is the name of the exhibition. It's called "Jumping into the Mire". I've been discussing it with Old Duan, Zhao Bang and you. Many of us discussed it for a long time, and then we chose this name, It seems like a very vague name, but I think it has a strength. In fact, when the audience comes in. It doesn't really matter what their reaction is What matters is that you have to throw yourself into the scene. You have to have this idea. I can throw myself into it. So jumping into the mire, the jump itslef is a sign of your attitude. That you're willing to jump in. You're facing everything. You're willing to jump in. You are willing to go into it. You are willing to go inside. And whether you're playing in it or not. Whether you're in pain, whether you're in agony, whether you're in pain, whether you're in agony, whether you're in agony. But you're always in it, you're willing to jump in.
渣克周：那是真实的。
Zachariah Zhou: It's real.
吕连涛：对，我是需要，我是想要的是，所以你谈到具体观众的感受，那是观众自己的事情，然后我传达的到位不到位，是我的事情。这是两回事。如果我也好、朋友也好、观众也好，他愿意跳进来，这个态势要有了，我觉得好的，我个人认为是就是成立的、成功的。这是我对于这个展览包括这个墙，我会选一个 人的一个视平线，视平线，挂画的时候会是人的视觉中心，但是我理解不是视觉中心，而是视觉线下面是鼻子，就是一个观众在这里面，当然这个不是所有人的身高了，他只是一个臆想，只是一个标准，我代表的是人在里面应该是窒息的，你在视平线以下，等于所有的作品，都浮在泥沼和上面，不知道，飘在这里，交界线上，都在它的沿上，而人是要浸在里面，然后和你看，一进门被手晃到，就一下就被它给侵略到，抓住你也好，还是挑衅你也好，冒犯你也好，还是你觉得它是一种关怀也好，都不知道都无所谓，但是你在里面，并且一进到眼睛里面，这个厅然后很亮，原来是昏暗的一个厅，再到里面有一个亮的厅，又是一个权杖和眼睛很对立的关系，然后你拿起权杖在里面走，又变成了作品的一部分，然后别人又看你的反应和动作。这是我的预设，传达到什么程度，咱们另说，但是这是我的一个整体的把握，从外面先看到的是脚在踹，就是它的一个是，你可能一开始在外面他就在踹，但是你走进来以后你会发现，你进入了一个，你跳进了一个泥沼里面，然后你在里面会听到内部的声音，脚踹墙，在内部的回声，是我想要的，不是外面那个动作，它会和眼睛的那种电流声和舵机的声音有一个对抗，我是这样琢磨这个事的。
Lv Liantao: Yes, I need it, I want it. So when you talk about how the audience feels. That's up to the audience. And whether I get it right or not is my business. That's a different thing. If I, or my friends, or the audience are willing to jump in. The momentum has to be there. I think it's good. I personally think it is valid and successful. This is my view of this exhibition. Including this wall, I'll choose a line of sight for people. When the painting is hung, it will be the centre of one's vision. But I understand that it is not the centre of vision. It's the nose below the line of vision. It's a viewer in here. Of course, this is not the height of everyone. It's just a conjecture. It's just a standard. What I represent is that one should be suffocated in there. You're below the horizon. Equals all the pieces. All floating in the mire and above. You don't knowing. Floating here. On the line of intersection. All along it. And one is meant to dip in. And then and you see. As soon as you enter the door and get shaken by the hand it invades you at once. Whether it grabs you or provoke you or offend you or whether you think it's a form of care. I don't know, it doesn't matter. But you're inside and once you're in the eye. This room is bright, It was a dark room. And then there's a brighter room inside. Again, the scepter and the eye are in opposition to each other. Then you pick up the scepter and walk around inside. It becomes part of the work again. And then people watch your reactions and movements again. This is my preconception. How far does it go? We'll talk about that another time. But this is my overall grasp. The first thing you see from the outside is the foot kicking. That's one of the things that it is. You may be outside at the beginning and he's kicking. But when you walk in you will find. You're jumping into a mud bog. And then you'll hear the sound inside when you're inside. The foot kicking the wall. Echoes on the inside. It's what I want. Not that movement on the outside. It's going to be a counterpoint to the sound of the current in the eyes. There's a counterpoint to the sound of the rudder. That's how I think about it.
渣克周：那接下来你的创作，你还会用刚才我们说到这种从这种日常之...也不是日常之物吧，更多的是从日常的一些小碎片里面，去提取一些这种感受然后把它放置在一个身体性的象征性的符号性的一个形式上，还会以这种方式继续会走？
Zachariah Zhou: And the next thing you're going to do, you're going to use. We were talking about this. It's not everyday things, is it? It's more like extracting the feeling from some small pieces of everyday. To extract some of these feelings and place it in a physical and symbolic form. And it will continue to go on in this way?
吕连涛：会，这是我创作了一个线索，但是会有所变化，比如说我可能会抽象化一些，比如说我这个眼睛，可能就不是特别写实的，一个呆萌的眼睛，也许是和身体另外一个东西，就是不是我会有，但是这个意思，还是情绪，还是生活的小碎片，我会把它收集起来。然后用我的方式呈现出来，但是面貌是另一说了，我可能会，我自己的直觉是，我希望后面的作品会慢慢在往一点不是这么具象的形态上去走，你看这一次其实都很具象的心态，有点雕塑的意味，这是这次展览我想要的。黄铜，写实，甚至我直接扫描了我的腿，我都没有自己去处理，像捏那个，就是它什么样就是什么，直接拿过来，这是这次想要的，那下一次我可能就直觉上认为，应该可能会更提纯动作和声音，然后视觉上可能会代指一下，我还没有想明白，但是后面的工作会做，上手的现在几个技术我会继续用，比如说人脸识别眼球识别，UWB，因为这个技术现在已经看得差不多了，我会找一个更切实的好玩的手段，来加上它，来再做一个新的尝试，也有可能从下一次就有一些静态出来了，现在有一些想法了，会慢慢地在朝这个方向去做。
Lv Liantao: Yes, this is a thread that I have created. But there will be changes. For example, I might abstract it a bit. For example, my eyes. I might not be particularly realistic. A dumb eye. Maybe it's something else with the body. It's not something I would have. But the meaning, or the emotion, or the little pieces of life. I'll collect it all up. And present it in my own way. But the look is another story. I might... my own intuition is… I hope that the later works will slowly move towards a little bit not in such a figurative form. You can see that this time it's actually a very figurative mentality. A little bit of sculpture. This is what I wanted for this exhibition. The brass, the realism, I even scanned my legs. I didn't even handle it myself. I didn't even do it myself. It's just what it looks like. That's what I wanted this time. So next time I probably intuitively thought. I think next time I might intuitively think that it's going to be more purely movement and sound. And then visually it might refer to it a bit. I haven't thought about it yet. But the work will be done later. I'll continue to use the technologies I've gotten started with. For example, face recognition, eyeball recognition. Yes, UWB. Because I've pretty much seen this technology now. I will look for a more practical and fun means to add to it to make a new attempt. There may be some static from the next one. I've got some ideas now. I'm slowly moving in that direction.
渣克周：OK老段，来聊聊咱们这次策展呗。
Zachariah Zhou: OK, Old Duan, let's talk about our curatorial exhibition of this time.
段少锋：这次策展，已经好多年没有这种感觉了，其实我们现在这种感觉，一下就搞的这么严重，把这个对话，是吧。特别像接受组织调查的这种感觉。我就不妨我先把这个展览。我再从头到尾再说一下吧，因为刚好之前也没有系统地来讲这个东西，我就简单地来讲吧，就不用去介绍我和老驴是怎么认识的了，这个已经是陈年往事了。其实我最早关注老驴是他的抖腿的那件作品，他那种节奏感，我觉得他怎么说，我能感受到的就是其中的焦虑吧，可能我和艺术家的体会不太一样，你像老驴的话，他从自己的作品里头，他想找的是这种节奏感，这种快感什么的。但我感受到的是焦虑，尤其是用身体和机械结合起来，所以之前我也给他写过一篇文章，写过两篇不一样的角度，一个是有点戏谑角度的，讲抖腿史。抖腿，它是一种和当代人的这种生活的，这种情境有关系吧，因为我之前也读过一篇文章，就讲今天的人的生活越来越工具化，特别像一个橡皮人，他是没有感情的，我觉得这个和老驴作品的感觉挺像的，然后后来我们想到去做这样一个展览，也是和你沟通过很多回了这个展览，就是想找这种有秩序的和混乱的这种中间的冲突。其实就是在讲一种它和体制的关系，所以我们想到了反差非常大的两个人，一个是雷芬斯塔尔，是一个纳粹的导演，还有一个是君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓》，它也是一种有节奏的，君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓》里面讲的，是一个长不大的小孩，和雷芬斯塔尔对纳粹的那种赞美，又是有一种反差的。但是我们觉得这种这样的话，无非这两个人的这种感觉，会把这个展览导向一个非常有针对性的一个展览，这样的话就框住了。老驴他想表达的一个意思的范围，意思倒是挺对的，但是可能它有限定性，所以后来我们这个展览的主题，包括整个的想法也变了很多了，最早本来是想在厅里头去呈现他以前的作品，有点像是他一三年到今天的一个小的回顾性的展览，但是随着过去的大半年老驴的想法也变了很多，他越来越想做新的东西，也是这个过程中的话，我觉得这个展览的挑战我觉得就出现了，这也是我感兴趣的，当然他要做新的作品就意味着很多不可控的东西，所以说这个中间也出了很多问题，这个问题其实在我看来我和艺术家的看法不一样，因为我觉得艺术家一直是在面对问题和解决问题的，而且我认为实验一定是有难度的，同时实验一定是一个动词不是一个结果，不是说我们来看到了一个，看上去很实验的展览，那么这个展览的所谓的实验性，在背后付出的东西，我觉得这个是要我来讲给大家的。但是也是没有这样的机会吧，我觉得通过这么一个机会，我也讲讲老驴在整个的创作当中，他面临的一个困难，一个艺术家如何用技术，他不可控的技术，一点一点靠近他。他有点像处女座那种追求，一点点在追求完美吧我就觉得。但是其实在我看来，我觉得结果其实不重要，重要的是他往这个结果走的过程。那么我觉得包括展厅里的那件作品，眼睛的那件作品，前后也发生了很大的变化，我觉得在这个过程中，实验是让艺术家学习如何去控制技术，而不是被技术控制。所以怎么说，还有眼睛，它本身那种无序性和它要表达的这种或者权力之间的关系，反而是节外生枝的一个东西，另外我觉得这个里边的话很意外的一点是他的手指头敲击台阶的声音，我后来一度认为这个展览甚至全部做成有声音的，甚至是一种有一点迷幻了，人听到最后可能会。
Duan Shaofeng: This time. It's been years since I've felt like this. Actually, we feel this way now. It's so serious that we're having this conversation, isn't it? It's especially like being investigated by the organization. I might as well put this exhibition on display first. I'll talk about it again from the beginning to the end. Because it just so happens that I haven't spoken about this in a systematic way before. I'll just talk about it briefly. I don't need to tell you how I met Old Donkey. This is already a long time ago. In fact, I first became interested in Old Donkey. It was the work of "Leg Shaking". Its sense of rhythm. I think he... how to put it. I think I could feel the anxiety in it. Maybe I don't have the same experience as him. You know, like Old Donkey, he's looking for a sense of rhythm in his work. What he was looking for was this sense of rhythm, this sense of pleasure or something like that. But what I feel is anxiety. Especially with the combination of body and machinery. That's why I wrote an article for him before. I wrote two pieces with different perspectives. One was a bit of a playful angle about the history of leg shaking. As for leg shaking, it's related to the contemporary life of people. This kind of situation, right? Because I've read an article before about how people's lives today are becoming more and more instrumentalised. It's especially like a rubber man. He has no feelings. I think this is quite similar to the feeling of Old Donkey's works. Then we thought of doing an exhibition like this. We've talked to you many times about this exhibition. We wanted to find this kind of order. The conflict between order and chaos. In fact, it's about the relationship between it and the system. So we came up with two people who are very contrasting. One is Reifenstahl who was a Nazi director. And Günter Grass's The Tin Drum. It's also a kind of rhythmic Günter Grass's "The Tin Drum" is about. It's about a child who doesn't grow up and Reifenstahl's praise of the Nazis. There is a contrast again. But we feel that this kind of thing. This feeling of these two people will lead this exhibition to a very specific exhibition. In this way, the scope of what the scope of the meaning that the old donkey wants to express. The meaning is quite right, but it may be limited. So later on, the theme of our exhibition and the whole idea of the exhibition has changed a lot. Originally, we wanted to present his previous works in the hall to present his previous works. It's like a small retrospective of his work from 2013 to today. A small retrospective exhibition. But over the past six months. Old Donkey's ideas have changed a lot. He wants to make new things more and more. It is also in this process that I think the challenge of this exhibition has emerged. That's what interests me too. Of course he wants to make new works. It means a lot of uncontrollable things. So there are a lot of problems in the middle of this. This problem is actually in my opinion. I don't see it the same way as the artist. Because I think, artists are always facing problems and solving them. And I think experimentation must be difficult. And experimentation must be a verb, not a result. It's not that we've come to see a exhibition that looks very experimental. Then the so-called experimental nature of the exhibition. What's behind it? I think it's up to me to tell you about it. But there is no such opportunity, right? I think through this opportunity, I would also like to talk about the difficulties that Old Donkey. One of the difficulties he faced. How does an artist use technology? Techniques that he couldn't control approaching him little by little. He was a bit like a Virgo in his pursuit. A little bit of perfection, I think. But in fact, in my opinion, I don't think the result is really important. What's important is the process he goes through to get there. So I think that includes the piece in the gallery. The piece with the eyes has also changed a lot before and after. I think in this process experimentation is for the artist to learn how to control the technology rather than being controlled by technology. So what to say. And the eye. The disorder that it has in itself and the kind of relationship it has to express or the relationship between power. Instead, it's an extraordinarily complicated thing. I also think that in this film. I think one of the surprises is the sound of his fingers. The sound of his fingers hitting the steps. I thought for a while that the exhibition was even made entirely of sound. It's even a little bit psychedelic. One might end up hearing...
渣克周：我们听了一个多月。
Zachariah Zhou: We listened to it for over a month.
段少锋：对。所以我觉得通过这个事情的话，我觉得对于艺术家来讲一定是要通过个展去成长的，这是我为什么一直在和老驴，我一直有这样一个愿望来帮他做一个个展，当然这个过程中的话，我作为一个技术小白的话，我其实帮不了太多，所以这个压力，整个就是在老驴他自己身上的，那么我觉得最后这个展览即将结束的，我依然还是很满意的。我相信这是一个1.0的版本，因为技术一定是有升级的，或许过五六年以后的话，我觉得通过这样的一个展览，老驴可能明白他如何处理和技术的关系，我觉得这是他应该最大的收获。
Duan Shaofeng: Yes. So I think that through this thing. I think that artists must grow through solo exhibitions. That's why I've been working with Old Donkey. I've always had this wish to help him make a solo exhibition. Of course, in this process, as a technical novice, I can't really help much. So this pressure is on Old Donkey himself. So I think the exhibition is coming to an end. I'm still very satisfied. I believe this is the version 1.0. Because the technology will definitely be upgraded. Maybe in five or six years' time. I think through such an exhibition. Old Donkey might understand how to handle his relationship with technology. I think that's the biggest gain he should make.
渣克周：对，是个过程。
Zachariah Zhou: Yes, it's a process.
段少锋：此外就是，像做了这么一个完整的展览，也有经验，也有一些小的体会。这些的话只能是冷暖自知。那最后呢，我讲讲跳进泥沼，其实像北京现在的这种状况，这种天气和这种疫情之后的，人与人之间的这种感觉，我觉得就特别像泥沼，本身像我本来是打算最近出北京的，但是发现出不了，我觉得这也是一种泥沼，所以跳进泥沼这个主题呢，其实特别不像吕连涛的，特别不像老驴的，和他的作品好像有一些距离，那个更文学一些。
Duan Shaofeng: Besides, having done a full exhibition like this. There's also some experience. There are also some small experiences. These can only be described as the warmth and coldness of oneself. Finally, I'll talk about "jumping into the mire". In fact, the current situation in Beijing. This weather and this epidemic. The feeling between people I think it's especially like a quagmire. I was planning to leave Beijing recently, but found that I couldn't get out. I think this is also a kind of quagmire. So the theme of jumping into the mire. It's not like Lv Liantao's, It's especially unlike Old Donkey's and his works. It seems to be a bit distant. It's a bit more literary.
渣克周：是的。
Zachariah Zhou: Yes, it is.
段少锋：但是作品更理性更冷冰冰一些，要更酷一些，所以跳进泥沼一下就你可以理解得很丰富了，它又是一种焦灼的，有的人看到了焦灼，有的人看到了喜剧，你知道吗，有的人甚至跟我说，他想到了什么，有些小孩在泥沼里玩那种感觉，但我觉得每个人读到的东西不一样，你像我觉得他还是蛮贴合今天人们的处境的。和老驴之前的作品表达出来那种焦虑，我觉得一直那抖腿，那种有节奏的或者是被控制那种东西，我觉得当代人的一种生活处境，那么这种泥沼可能更像2020年后面的这种体会，就是你跳不出来，我们其实回头想想，我实在想不起就像上一次我出去玩的时候是什么体会，我觉得今天的我们就深陷于一种泥沼之中。
Duan Shaofeng: But the work is more rational and colder. It's a little bit cooler. So by jumping into "the mud" for a while. You can understand it very richly. It's kind of anxious again. Some people see the angst. Some see the comedy, you know? Some people even tell me. He thought of something. Some kids playing in the mud bog kind of feeling. But I think everyone reads things differently. You know, like I think he's quite relevant to. The situation that people are in today. And the anxiety that Old Donkey expressed in his previous works. I think the leg shaking all the time. That kind of rhythm. Or the kind of thing that is controlled. I think the situation of contemporary people's lives. So this kind of quagmire. Maybe it's more like. The experience behind the year 2020. That you can't get out of it. When we think back. I can't really remember. Like the last time I went out, what was it like? I think we're in a kind of quagmire today.
渣克周：所以我们要主动地去跳进这个泥沼，而不是去逃出什么。
Zachariah Zhou: So we have to take the initiative to jump into that mire, Instead of trying to get out of something.
段少锋：因为逃离你是逃不开的，就跟比如说沙尘暴，比如说雾霾，我们是无法逃离的，我们只能身处其中，来体会这种感觉。因为你无法逃离的，我觉得艺术家也好，每个人也好，他特别想逃离的东西其实很多了。比如说，推及到每个人，有欲望的泥沼，有理想的泥沼。那么包括我觉得艺术家，这个非常特殊的一点，就是他一直在处理自己的欲望和理想的关系，包括我们所有在做艺术这一行的，再说的直接，他一方面又最接近一个，最接近钱本身，但是它又最不接近钱本身，它是一个最没用的东西，就是说如何把一个最没用的东西，当然这是我们一种自嘲艺术到底有没有用，我们暂且不用说了。反正泥沼的话，我觉得应该是大部分人的处境，我觉得在今天的全球环境里的话，无论是比如说扎克伯格前一段时间，他也是陷在一种泥沼里，对于每一个具体的人来讲，我觉得都是这样的，这就是我们今天的遭遇。
Duan Shaofeng: Because you can't run away from it. It's like a sandstorm, for example. Like a haze. We can't run away from it. We can only be in it to feel it. Because you can't escape. I think artists and people alike. There are many things that they want to escape from. For example, it extends to everyone. There's the quagmire of desire. There is the quagmire of ideals. I think he… This is a very special point is that he is always dealing with his own desires and his ideals. And all of us who are in the art business. And again, directly. He is on the one hand the closest to a closest to money itself. But it is also the closest to money itself. It is the most useless thing. That is to say, how to take the most useless thing. Of course, this is a kind of self-deprecation. Is art useful or not? We don't need to talk about it for the moment. Anyway, in the case of the mire. I think this is the situation of most people. I think in today's global environment. Whether it's, for example, Zuckerberg some time ago. He was also stuck in a kind of quagmire. For each individual person. I think that's the case for all of us. That's what's happening to us today.
渣克周：对，但你觉得比如说。你自己的一个策展的脉络和思路，它跟这次展览有出入吗，或者说在你整个经验的结构里面，这次展览是一个特例吗？
Zachariah Zhou: Yeah, but do you think that, for example. Do you think that your own curatorial approach and thinking is different from this exhibition? Or in the structure of your whole experience Is this exhibition a special case?
段少锋：其实我没有总结过我到底策展是什么路子，我没有总结过，包括我之前我对我觉得甚至混乱就是一种现象，我原来其实挺抵触这种，别人说，我们一定要把一个东西系统化，我觉得可能我后来，我经过很长时间的挣扎了，比如说别人一定会问你，你在哪个谱系里边，后来我就认为是，我为什么，那我反过来问，我们为什么非要把它谱系化，当然这是一种狡辩，我依然还是很喜欢处在一种，就是做艺术的时候，它其实是年轻的，荷尔蒙的，有本能的。就像这个空间里头，我们6月份做00后的展览一样，其实你像一个80后，和你这样一个95后，去做一个00后的展览，它是什么样的，我在想我到底是以一种什么样的姿态呢？我觉得我本身是欣赏他们的那种气质，这种气质是一直督促我这么多年还能做，当然我也不能讲这种混杂，我觉得今天中国的现场，就是一个混乱的现场，它的混杂性其实预示着很多的可能性，是我觉得这个是它比欧洲或者是美国，或者是其他各国的资本主义国家，更有可能性的一个原因也就是说今天在中国的话，每个人至少对于年轻人来讲，它还是有很多可能性的，对于比如说跃迁的可能性，一个中国的年轻人不会像一个日本的年轻人，那样的低欲望，我觉得今天的这种欲望的混杂和人的身份也是混杂的，人的身份也是混杂的，你无法想象。你要知道，我是在一个十八线小城镇都不能算，就是都一个很小的一个村里出来的，一个小村里的青年，我会现在在做当代艺术，这个是我无法想象的一个事情，这要退十年的话，但是我就是这么过来的，我觉得当代艺术里头，好就好在它有很多这样的经验，他不妨有你这样的海归，但是也有很多具有本土经验的。很多年轻艺术家，我觉得吕连涛也是这样的一个艺术家，其实这个环境里头，这个空间就本身有意思，一个具有海归背景的画廊组和一个具有中国本土经验的艺术家，就是一个外国的学院派，碰上了本国的学院派，我们经常也嘲笑自己是土鳖的，像从冯博一老师开始，他经常自嘲就是土鳖策展人，我依然我也会认为我是一个土鳖的策展人，一切还没有形成，确实连中国的当代艺术，你都没有办法将其称之为历史，我有时候在开研讨会的时候，我甚至会觉得当下所有的这些正在发生的事情，称其为学术，我都觉得是一种很可笑的事。
Duan Shaofeng: Actually, I haven't summed up my curatorial approach. I haven't summarised it. I've never summarised it.I think even confusion is a phenomenon. I was actually quite resistant to this kind of. Other people say. We must systematize something. I think that maybe… I struggled for a long time. For example, people will definitely ask you In which genealogy are you. And then I thought it was why do I. Then I ask the opposite. Why do we have to put it on the spectrum. Of course this is a sophistry I still like to be in a kind of It's when you're making art. It's actually young. Hormonal and instinctive. Just like in this space. We're doing an exhibition for the post-00s in June. You're actually like a post-80s and you're a post-95 to do a post-00s exhibition. What does it look like? I was thinking about what kind of attitude I was taking. I think I appreciate their temperament. This kind of temperament is what has been urging me to do it for so many years. Of course I can't talk about this kind of mixture. I think the scene in China today is a scene of chaos. Its mixed nature actually indicates a lot of possibilities. I think it's a lot more chaotic than Europe or the United States. Or other capitalist countries. It is one of the reasons why it has more possibilities. In other words, in China today. For everyone, at least for young people. There are still a lot of possibilities. For example, the possibility of leapfrogging. A young person in China is not like a young person in Japan whoes desires are so low. I think that today's mixed desires and the identity of people is also mixed. People's identities are also mixed. You can't imagine. You have to understand. I'm fomr a very very small town, no, not even a small town. It's just a very small village. A young man from a small village. I'm doing contemporary art. This is something I could't imagine. If you go back ten years. But this is how I came to be I think the good thing about contemporary art. The good thing is that it has a lot of such experience. There may be returnees like you. But there are also many with local experience. Many young artists I think Lv Liantao is also such an artist. In fact, in this environment. This space is interesting in itself. A gallery group with a returnee background and an artist with local Chinese experience. It's a foreign academy meets the local academy. We often laugh at ourselves for being a native. Like from Mr. Feng Boyi. He used to laugh at himself for being a turd curator. I still... I think I'm a turd curator too. Everything has not yet been formed. Indeed even Chinese contemporary art. You can't even to call it history. Sometimes when I give seminars. I even feel that all these things that are happening at the moment things that are happening right now. Calling it academic. I think it's all kind of It's ridiculous.
渣克周：你看很有意思一点，你刚才说到土鳖和土和洋的一个区别，就是大家在这种固有认知里面，往往这个土，它会代表一种低科技，它会代表一种退，就是叫什么，落后。然后所谓的洋它代表着好，代表着新代表着科技。但是你会发现，现在有一个很有意思一个现状，就是欧洲的学院派，据我的一个审美经验和一个观察的结果，欧洲的画廊和这些空间，它做这种新媒体艺术也好，或者叫这种互动性，或者叫机械结构，利用科技或者说整个叫科技艺术吧，利用科技的能力，然后去达成某样的这种，一个装置也好，一个设备艺术也好，但是它的比例在欧洲，其实是远远低于中国的，中国好像大家现在都在，就这个东西特别热，他一直在鼓吹这个东西，然后你怎么看待这个现状。
Zachariah Zhou: You see it's funny a bit. You just talked about the difference between. The difference between a native and a foreigner. It's the fact that people's perception is that often this is rustic can represent a kind of low technology. It can represent a kind of retreat. What is it called? Backwardness. And then the so-called foreign, it represents good. It stands for new, it stands for technology. But you will find. There is a very interesting situation now. It's the European academy. According to my aesthetic experience and an observation. European galleries and these spaces. They do this kind of new media art or this kind of interactivity or mechanical structure. Using technology or the whole thing is called technological art. The ability to use technology to achieve a certain kind of an installation or an installation or a piece of art. But its proportion in Europe is actually much lower than in China. In China, it seems that everyone is now. This thing is very hot. He's always advocating it. And what do you think of this situation?
段少锋：这个就得往长了说了，因为谈我的个人理解，我觉得从晚清开始，大家中国人就处在这种对于新的东西或者是洋的东西的焦虑里头，永远要向世界看，就是放眼看世界，从魏源然后就一直有一种所谓的技术崇拜，就是我们一定要追求新的东西，从洋务运动开始，再到80年代我们一定要实现四个现代化，再到今天我们一定要提倡我们的创新能力，那么我觉得反而是这一百多年来，我们一直处在一种特别强的，比如说两种方向，艺术界有理论热，还有科技圈里有一个科技热，我觉得科技热和理论热，就是我们我们对于自身非常的不自信，然后特别希望向外获取某种能量来提升自己，我是这么认为这个事情。
Duan Shaofeng: Because you can't run away from it. It's like a sandstorm, for example. Like a haze. We can't run away from it. We can only be in it to feel it. Because you can't escape. I think artists and people alike. There are many things that they want to escape from. For example, it extends to everyone. There's the quagmire of desire. There is the quagmire of ideals. I think he… This is a very special point is that he is always dealing with his own desires and his ideals. And all of us who are in the art business. And again, directly. He is on the one hand the closest to a closest to money itself. But it is also the closest to money itself. It is the most useless thing. That is to say, how to take the most useless thing. Of course, this is a kind of self-deprecation. Is art useful or not? We don't need to talk about it for the moment. Anyway, in the case of the mire. I think this is the situation of most people. I think in today's global environment. Whether it's, for example, Zuckerberg some time ago. He was also stuck in a kind of quagmire. For each individual person. I think that's the case for all of us. That's what's happening to us today.
渣克周：你觉得这种是不是属于一种，其实算是一种现代性的一个困境呢？就是我们现在这代人，尤其是中国人必须面临的一个问题。
Zachariah Zhou: Do you think this is a kind of a modern dilemma? A dilemma? That is, our generation now especially the Chinese, must face a problem.
段少锋：谈“现在”这个词的话，本身“现在”这个词是区别新旧的，现代性，这个词是怎么来的，我觉得这些都是被发明出来的，对是被发明出来的，现代性又是怎么来的，我觉得是现代化吧。确切来讲整个这种社会的现代化，我觉得是区别于这种，相当于是战后的一个东西了，二战后的一个产物吧。现代化因为以前讲的不是，我们要美国化，我们要欧洲化，这好像就是预示着一种先进，但是在二战后的话，好吧我们全球化现代化这个词，就取代了这种美国化或者是欧洲化，我觉得因为有了另外一个中心了，有了苏联那样，到了这几年的话呢包括现代化这个词，我后来查过，它这种焦虑一直影响着中国人，像我们要真的实现社会主义的现代化是什么时候呢，我后来去查网上，我发现是21世纪的50年代，也就是说得再过差不多30年了，我原来以为现代化这个词，是一个我印象里头应该80年代就过去了，但是我那次一查，我发现居然要到21世纪的50年代，也就是说到现在我们还没有实现现代化，所以你看这种焦虑它是不断的往后延伸的。我觉得到今天的话，为什么艺术界这么执着于谈科技，其实我认为科技最终是一个焦虑的问题，因为我们做过几次论坛 每次谈科技，最后引向的是大家对于艺术自身的不确定和焦虑 你知道吗，然后大家反而谈这个问题，还有再回到一个问题，就是本身在这种科技在做艺术的，其实在国外你说的确实也它不是主流，这个东西是从上个世纪90年代，主要是当时的一些企业来做这个事情，但是国内的话，现在好像变成了一个学院行为，现在在国外也有很有意思，但是它艺术与科技的提法，其实也是在学院内，它到了真正的美术馆系统，它还提的不多，不是提一个艺术与科技的概念，国内的话主要是在专业院校，当然也是，甚至是艺术类的专业院校，非艺术类的专业校不提这个，你比如说中国科技大学，好像就没有一个专业叫艺术与科技，但是在麻省是有一个和艺术有关系的专业的。
Duan Shaofeng: When it comes to the word "now, the word "now" in itself is a distinction between the old and the new. Modernity. Where did the word come from? I think it was all invented. Yes, it was invented. And where did modernity come from? I think it was... modernisation. The modernisation of society as a whole, to be precise. I think it's different from this. It's a post-war thing. A product of the post-World War II period. Modernization, because what we used to talk about was not. We want to be Americanized. We want to be Europeanised. It seemed to herald a kind of advancement. But after the Second World War. Well, the word globalization, modernization replaced this Americanization or Europeanization. I think because there was another centre. There was the Soviet Union. In the last few years including the word modernization. I looked it up later. This kind of anxiety has always affected Chinese people. Like we want to really. To achieve socialist modernization. When will it be? I searched on the internet later. I found that it was the 1950s of the 21st century. That means it will be almost 30 years later. I thought the word modernization. I thought it would have passed in the 80s. But when I looked it up that time I found out that it would take until the 1950s of the 21st century. That means we haven't modernized by now. So you can see that this anxiety is constantly extending backwards. I think that to this day. Why is the art world so obsessed with talking about technology? In fact, I think technology is ultimately a matter of anxiety. Because we've done several forums and every time we talk about technology. In the end, what it leads to is the uncertainty and anxiety about art itself. Uncertainty and anxiety, you know? And then people talk about that instead. And then we come back to the question. It's the fact that in this kind of technology in art. It's true that it's not mainstream in foreign countries, as you say. This is something that started in the 90s of the last century. It was mainly some companies that did this at that time. But in China. Now it seems to have become an academic act. It's also very interesting in foreign countries now. But the reference to art and technology. Actually, it's also within the academy. When it comes to the real art museum system. It is still not mentioned much. It's not a concept of art and technology. In China, it's mainly in professional institutions. Of course, even in art schools. Non-art professional schools don't mention this. For example, the University of Science and Technology of China. I don't think there is a major, It's called Art and Technology. But in Massachusetts there is a major related to art-related major at Massachusetts.
渣克周：MIT是有，那应该是现在世界排名第一的了。
Zachariah Zhou: MIT does. It's probably the top ranked in the world right now.
段少锋：所以我觉得这是今天的，我也和很多人交流过一些，国内为什么没有理工科的去发起艺术科技，而是艺术类的高校在做艺术与科技。
Duan Shaofeng: So I think it's today's, I've also talked to a lot of people about some why there are no science and technology disciplines in the country to initiate art and technology. Instead, art universities are doing art and technology.
渣克周：其实也不是没有我感觉，但是好像现在大部分人，把所谓的艺术与科技，它最后转化成职业的话，它不是作为艺术家而是作为一个叫接活的，或者叫展陈，这样的一个逻辑更多的是......
Zachariah Zhou: Actually, it's not that there aren't any I feel. But it seems that most people nowadays turn the so-called art and technology It ends up as a profession if It's not as an artist but rather as a person who receives work or as a... We go to make an exhibition. Such a logic It is more.
段少锋：当然像新技术的使用啊，肯定是必然的，就像以前做版画，你一定要用刻刀木工刀，是吧，老驴也是学版画的，现在有激光刀了，用激光刀肯定是势在必行的，他只是换了一个工具而已，就是要把技术当成一种工具，我觉得现在我们就以艺术界的，比如说很多艺术家的能力，他没到了能谈这个技术本身，所以我觉得这也是为什么，老驴一直不认为，自己是在做艺术与科技，因为我觉得这是这两年很热闹的一个提法，对我是就这么感觉的吧。
Duan Shaofeng: Of course like the use of new technology is definitely inevitable. Just like in the old days of printmaking. You had to use a carving knife. A woodworking knife, right? Old Donkey studied printmaking too. Now we have laser knives. It's definitely an imperative to use a laser knife. He's just changing the tool. It's about using technology as a tool I think now we are taking the art world, For example, the ability of many artists. He's not at the point where he can talk about the technology itself. So I think that's why. Old Donkey has never considered himself as doing art and technology, because I think it's a very lively term these two years. Yeah, I think that's how I feel about it.
渣克周：所以你会觉得现在的这种，我们刚才你提到的这种，所谓叫现代性焦虑或者说，比如说艺术圈，会对这个东西有一个解答吗，就是说在未来比如说，这些所谓的新媒体艺术家，或者叫科技艺术家们，他们在继续探讨这个主题这个宗旨的这一个方向上，你觉得会对真正，会解决我们的这种一部分，会解决掉我们焦虑吗？
Zachariah Zhou: So you would think that the kind of What you mentioned earlier is this. The so-called modernity anxiety or The art world, for example. Will there be an answer to this? That in the future, for example. These so-called new media artists, or technology artists. They're continuing to explore this theme, this purpose, in this direction. Do you think it will have an impact on the real. Will it solve this part of us. Will it solve our anxiety?
段少锋：我觉得解决不了，这是和今天大的整个的艺术生态有关系。怎么说呢，当然今天的技术也好，整个的生活什么的，它的情景比以前好太多了，但是它确实是一个，没办法，是处于一个不是那么文化的一个高潮期，我们一直在谈创造力的时候，一定是缺乏创造力，所以说今天的艺术，我觉得就，反正我觉得就和今天的媒体一样每天都在产生不同的，就是它变得太快，变得太快的同时，陷入到一种频繁刺激，但是又很空洞，就是大家好像做了很多东西，但是好像都被这种周围的环境给消解的七零八碎的，尤其是这种你比如说今天我们做的，所谓深刻的，其实我觉得今天正是因为大众文化的信息，他对于深刻的东西越来越拒绝了，我也做过一些网红展啊，网红展的这种从这个过程中我也在摸索，今天的人为什么变得不深刻，因为大家的注意力变得不再集中，你比如说这种短视频，大数据对每个人的算计，会导致每个人都变得很极端的。比如说你特别喜欢某个明星，他会不停地给你推，而且不给你吃别的了，就相当于我只给你吃一种东西，最后很容易把大家塑造成一个特别极端的，特别单一的人。
Duan Shaofeng: I don't think so. This is related to the overall art ecology today. How can I put it? Of course, today's technology or the whole life and all that, It's so much better than before. But it's really a It can't be helped, it's at a not so cultural a high point. We keep talking about creativity when there must be a lack of creativity. So the art of today I think it's the same as the media today. It's different every day. It's just that it's getting so fast. It's getting too fast and at the same time. Into something that is frequently exciting. But then it's hollow. It's like everyone seems to be doing a lot of stuff but it seems to be dissipated by this surrounding environment. Especially this kind of... For example, what we are doing today. The so-called profound. In fact, I think that today it is because of the messages of popular culture. It's becoming more and more resistant to profound things. I've also done some netflix exhibitions. Netflix exhibitions. From this process I'm also trying to figure out. Why people today have become less profound. Because people's attention has become less focused. For example, this kind of short video. Big data, big data, the calculation of everyone. It causes everyone to become very extreme. For example, if you like a particular celebrity. He'll keep pushing you. And he won't give you anything else to eat. It's like I'm only giving you one thing to eat. In the end, it's easy to make people into a very extreme. A single-minded person.